"We The People Are The Leaders" : Not the spokespersons/representatives we hire to carry out our orders! When will people get this Truth! Enforce Equality In The Law; and all the other problems will soon be taken care of!

Now we are thinking. It's all about the how, and the first questions we should ask is how did this come to be. Your outline of the two weapons is great. Do you think though that maybe it should be economics and then law, because in this world today economics it is was also controls the law too ?
Also he who controls your debt, also controls you. Debt is not only a very powerful thing, and it is a chameleon of control. It is easy to get people to say well that's the way it is, and offers the only solution of a long term commitment. Making it not only easier to except, but if abused in a patient, and distracting way, along with a good marketing theme presented enough, and repeated.
It has made things like credit card practices, excepted as just the right thing to do, not just they way it is. The knowledge of this long ago, and the control and patience to do it along with leading thought, to hypnotize us with a positive marketing scheme. That combined with the fear of debt, can keep someone where you want him for a long time. Even the law officers they use to throw at this first. They have planned for one life during the bubble, and now they have to figure out what to do about pensions being cut or the threat of it. Very powerful stuff.
So I think you hit on something very important here, and I don't really disagree with you, but do you see what I'm saying here? We the people got locked into mental handcuffs, and the fear of debt may indeed be the most powerful weapon, especially when abused and tied to tactics of manipulation. It sure seems the law of the land if you are the working class today. The understanding of who is in charge is an excellent question, but it is a complicated one, the understanding of how is not so complicated and will lead you to the who. Does that make sense to you ? Or what do you think about it ?

Actually I should have placed religion 1st; the law 2nd; politics; 3rd; then economics 4th; While money makes this society "go around" unless the law says so, you have no debts; the law corrupted; can be used to beat, imprison, and even murder people; then used to protect the guilty from prosecution; money is merely a powerful influence. Follow the law all the way back and you will find it's roots in religion. The mainstream religions of this world are the #1 problem: misinformation in the law, and money are weapons that must be dealt with

I Am a Christian minister who will not pretend that all is well in the church.

Ah yes, I see your way of reasoning, and that makes good sense also. Your saying it started with religion and law, and if the law said there was no money the influence would be gone. Are you talking about world wide debt forgiveness ? Since really 98% of our money is not backed today anyway. That is not so far out if the question. Unless you have all the power and an idea like that takes most of it from you. They ain't lovin that idea. They most likely didn't get there with a forgiving attitude either.

Religion is the number 1 problem you say. It can cause much emotion. It is really mostly a belief, a faith that what you believe is there. Many different people fighting that their way is right, and it brings out such emotion because it is such a personal thing, and if you are devout it must be first when you see this life as preparing for the next.

It's ok to have and feel all of it, especially when you have freedom of religion. To believe one way because your free to, but people forget here that freedom that allows you to believe your way. Should protect some one else's free will, and choice to practice another. It's amazing after all this time, people still have not figured that out here and everywhere. It would help to except diversity there, and learn from it. They all say love one another.

That being said, this conversation has reminded me of a movie line, that says , whatever keeps you in the good graces of the church, and another says, Isn't peculiar how money does that very thing? :) . I see what your saying it has caused many problems , but praying as a reminder we need to love each other everyday might not be so bad, but it may not help some either.

I think in this fast moving world it's easy to forget so much with trying to keep up with the day to day stream of info coming at us, and how thoughts can be led, and manipulated, by that short attention span alone. Makes it easy to make one forget. So is it money also that has corrupted the church that causes your view to be that way ?

Now I read somewhere debt is not the essence of morality. Can you agree that today, and it may have not started this way, it is the essence of our reality ? That which controls the most, even law? You said up there the law was corrupted. That would be by money correct ?

Mankind : is corrupted by " the love of money/ materialism/excessive need for physical gratifacation and desire for social power. ; Religion, and the Law; are corrupted by mankind : because they are the most powerful unions on earth, and in control of money and every facet of society. If you don't understand your enemy and his weapons; you have virtually no chance of overcoming him. Money changes value every day, according to the laws; whose history traces all the way back too, and through the church. You are way to niave about the history and power of religion.

Power is not an accident!

Ouch, Naive ? You assumed that from me asking questions ? Is that a little harsh minister? Maybe I came across wrong I just thought this would be an interesting philosophical discussion. Actually I agree largely with your assessment of the origins, and especially with knowing your enemy and his weapons. I think to understand how we got here is essential. How far are we going back here though ? Places like Rome seemed to do a good job of control, and have quite a few similarities to things here today, Was that purely religion based ? I understand you may be referring to an earlier date. I was attempting to suggest that maybe over the centuries that power has shifted somewhat. Are you referring to something very specific ? Once again to clarify, these are questions I ask for your opinion for discussion, not to win an argument. I'm sorry if you interpreted it that way, it was not my intention.

Not my desire to offend/insult anyone ; There are far worse things one can be than niave, we are all niave in some areas: It's you're reference to religion as simply an emotion; or faith without power; that concerns me, not any questions you might ask and even more importantly; It's Occupy's lack of awareness that concerns me and tells me that they under estimate and do not understand of the role religion has played; and currently plays in the formation of society; and the law; and therefore will not be able to overcome them. For over 2 thousand years, kings and rulers have used the church(s); and the church(s) have conspired with secular government(s), to control the people; and not with their best interests at heart. Wall St is a part of the problem; but the people who built and run Wall St. are the main problem which must be dealt with; more than the machine they have created. In conclusion : Money and the stock market are simply inanimate objects: created and maintained by people who hide behind religion, law,politics, and finance, to cheat their fellow man out of Equality=freedom=Justice