Hello Skoalbite. I think we shout have the message that we maximize inequality maximum. I wrote a artikel a long time ago about it. It is verry simpel. We must therefore ask ourselves how much we want to inequality in our world? And then maximize it. For more information look here:

http://www.hobby-psychologie.nl/nieuws-49-Gelijkheid%20is%20een%20sprookje%20maar%20is%20concurrentie%20alles%20ongelijkheidmaximum%20.html

I have changed my mind on this. I use to think it was crucial to present an overall message. Now that this movement has grown to what it is, 'framing' it is impossible. We all know whats right, and have a vague consensus on what is wrong. I think remaining 'tabula rasa' is our strength. What's most important right now is getting out there and talking to people and exchanging viewpoints. It will grow organically like a grassroots movement should.

Hello jeroen, I studied psychology myself and will read your article with interest once I translate it and summarize/potentially debate it here.

I like what you said about 'vague consensus of what is wrong,' and I think that's what we should frame, it doesn't exclude demands or issues, but it indicates [i]something[/i] other than "lets eat the rich" and anarchy or communism.

I don't mean to say the communists and anarchists have nothing to add to the discussion; quite contrary any genuine beliefs are essential and you're right that's how we got where we are.

I Agree with MundusVultDecipi that we never can get al mind toghter as think as one. But sharing is a good thing. Debate the articel here is fine.

Skoalbite there are a lot of perspectivs, we must see if we can argive a common goal. Let's see what we have in common rather then say sombody is wrong. So we need to listen to the good things of any system. The good thing of anarchy is that they don't listen to the people in power but make up there own mind. The bad thing is that it is hard to work with a anarchy because he do it his own way. anarchy has good and bad things. The key goal is to filter out the good things.

But I think we need a new balance in the world and that the world is out of balance.

Interesting take on the subject.
http://slatest.slate.com/posts/2011/10/18/occupy_wall_street_poll_shows_protests_mainstream_popularity.html

Ok, I just read this, and I think he makes some very good suggestions. I think his intention is good, he is old enough to have seen movements in the past. He wants to see us succeed, and projected that a little through his ideas. Which were not bad. I like the we love our country we're here to fix it, and we are the beacon of the world in many ways. It is also good to stay positive. Plus it was a decent explanation in the most general sense of framing. I just think there will be much doubt out there, whether created or general. People are nervous this will just go away, some people know the power also of the 1% who so desperately want it to go away. It is not.

It has just begun, and in the open forum that is trying to take form here. It takes time. I say if don't understand about the 99% percent, and what that represents. Time to educate yourself .
@skoalbite very well said, I agree with the consensus of this whole thread.
MVd Nice find, 87% or ok with the protest. Somethings going right.
Oh and it shows many different examples of framing. The first step in finding how different people want to brand it to sell it or attack it, in the best way to you box in thought for what ever way you wish to present it. So ya it's normal in a general sense, but complicated .

Frames are just structures of thought that we use every day. All words in all languages are defined in terms of frame-circuits in the brain. But, ultimately, framing is about ideas, about how we see the world, which determines how we act.

Talking points creators, and even visual planers, branding for marketing of all kinds know these things listed right above, and have mastered all techniques which influence that, which determines how we act. Visuals that stimulate circuits in the brain, and words that when attached with emotion are effective too, all more so when repeated. Also the subliminal is included too. Once you have framed a motive. Thoughts can be framed, statements,and questions.

Looking at these things listed above, it's the first step for me in identifying motives, and believe me there often is, mostly to sell stuff , but now more so in politics too. Suggesting anything from what is right or wrong, to who you should hate, and when repeated enough, for long enough you would be surprised what it can't accomplish.
Anyone else pick that up out of this ?

It's worth some serious thought, and when start to reverse engineering, it applies to about anything. That to me is why, Framing, though it's normal like the article says. it's a little too normal when you start to look for it. So let's watch how anyone frames our narrative, and maybe that is exactly why we shouldn't yet.

I'm starting to think you're right gavemehope. It's irksome to me that the people I work with think we just want to blame the wealthy for our own laziness, that even Sirrius/XM Left radio shows don't know what we're about and assume that because we don't have a message we're uneducated and disorganized. But most people in the country are with us in understanding that something very wrong has happened to this country, that lies and misinformation have brought us collapse, and redress is overdue.

Maybe you should ask the people you work with if that may have been the wealthy's plan for the last 20 or 30 years. To make us unattached, uneducated, morally bankrupt and focused on the things that make us good consumers. That never question authority or power. Only focused on what's the newest trend, and what the next one will be. They call it the philosophy of futility. To keep us focused on the insignificant.

They create marketing from it's infancy with psychiatrist with every intention to manipulate consumers, then when the news, and politics became owned by the corporations they simply applied these practices through a repeated, scripted narrative, that may very in opinion, but certain things are collectively done. Then once someone figured out how effective and profitable it was for all these things to keep us fighting. We have the 24 hour news cycle, we have today.

Can you think of a more effective way to repeat certain things, and keep us divided and focused more on the futile than that? Combine that with political marketing for conditioning thought. You can very effectively influence the out come of elections, while doing all the other things, and since it's a market, and people do now get focused on the futile. If one drums up more controversy, and it sells. The others are made to follow by rule of ratings. Once again all manufactured, influenced and controlled by money. They will not change unless we stop consuming it and demand better. Changing the market. They have wanted sheep that graze and don't look up. It is time to look up.

All this being true, that is why it has been so hard for them to frame the 99%. For one thing there are to many differences and problems the 99% have. Also it's hard talking about the 99% without opening up conversations about the 1% and how it became so unbalanced. Maybe it is easier to suggest that if you want to understand the 99, maybe it's easier to focus on the 1%. Easier to frame, but hard to escape the truth of it.

I've posted a few things under philosophy that could be relevant to marketing and public relations psychology if anyone's interested in that.

In this thread, what I want to gripe about is that we are already being framed, those media gurus with an interest in seeing us fail so easily created the 53%ers, and I think (though we are winning the public relations battle anyways) if we can frame ourselves we can bring more people into the fold. Indeed we focus on the 99% and the 1%, but the real enemy actually are those public relations gurus who convinced everybody to buy into this stupid free-market idea that made the richest richer and everybody else less so. We need to attack the ideas: their framing of us and of economic policy, starting with framing ourselves. Might not be something we need to do yet, but I believe that is our next major hurdle.

I will check out those postings and agreed, next big hurdle. It will have to be agreed open by many. I think the 99% is fine for now, and id great for many reasons. I first think it is of the utmost importance we educate ourselves on this matter of framing and marketing, which is exactly where your philosophy post is leading. If it stays on marketing .Understanding this is key, in many factions of the life we live today. Gotta get off here now, but will check that out, thanks for posting it.

Very glad it's appreciated.

I heard on the radio today probably the best thing that could have ever been said about OWS:

"Occupy Wall Street does stand for something--it's about opening up a discussion of what the country could and should be"

"Occupy Wall Street does stand for something--it's about opening up a discussion of what the country could and should be"
I like the picture inside that frame, That is outstanding !

@skoalbite I read you post, and answered it there in Philosophy

I saw an argument that there has been some division over what the "message" is. first I want to say this. methodical, patient, distracting, persuasive, subliminal, repetitive manipulation. They are patient and relentless. They keep driving this narrative that this movement is going to fail if they don't frame a message. This is not by accident, this is a tactic, and even when you know it is, it can be effective. They want a place to start. Well until everyone decides, we might tell them this.
We first need a free and fair press. One that stops acting like they are so ignorant of the problems this is trying to address. They should know best, and they do. If not, why wouldn't they? I ask them, if you are the gatherers, and collectors of all information, why don't you point out some of these huge problems we have with corruption? Instead of pretending you are so bewildered by it. To say you don't understand why they are at wall street, and what they may want. Is ridiculous. I hear so many say and inform what the people want when they are promoting their business of elections.
They know more than anybody in this world knows it's all about the money. Yet they never seem to talk about it. Or ask anyone what our country is going to do about corruption, of and by our government and financial system that could make them both fail. Quite honestly their is a much, much, much better chance of that happening than this movement failing. Why do they not ask those questions? Or even use their knowledge to project these concerns on this movement, instead projecting concerns of the movement itself. Why? Because they are paid and made to do so is why. Unless they could logically answer those questions I asked. This is not fitting into their agenda of the industry they work in. So what do they do? Instead of informing they distract? Instead of encouraging, they carefully frame questions to create doubt, and also to have a pathetic excuse for lack of coverage.
This story would and will make their business money. Why wouldn't it? Even when it's not in their business model, some slight tweaks and they could excite millions with these stories. Why don't they? It has drama, it has heart, it has excitement, it has controversy with the abuse of innocents by police, reports of and by famous people having Home land security involved in peaceful assemblies of our own American people. It has every thing you need and more to sell commercials, and fits right into your political based narrative. So tell us. Why are you not using it ?
Maybe when they answer those questions, should they have the right to question good hard working people using their first amendment right to voice their concerns for where their lives are going and where this country is going since they systematically refuse to report about the corruption that threatens it.
So maybe, just a thought if people are concerned about a message from pressure from a press maybe we start there. Just some food for thought.

You know I have a thought on the framing of how this can begin. As a species our main goal is to survive. It is a natural process all different species go through. Most of us will jump on the wagon of the majority as a means of survival. (That could eventually work in our favor).
The disease of greed has been around since the beginning of man. It is a part of our emotional traits. It is embedded in all of us. It hurts us and everyone around us and will continue its destructive ways until we stop it.
We could start framing greed and how it has affected us humans throughout our history. Until we can come to an understanding of the imprisonment of this sickness and how it dictates how we respond to it we won’t be able to get past it. This could be the warning from our ancients.
If one takes a good hard look at one's self they will find the sickness of greed in their lives and how it is used even in the smallest of ways. I too have lost my way at times by getting caught in the moment. It is a constant work in progress and we all have to work at it to keep it at bay.
Until us humans can understand this process and except that it is a part of our emotional trait we can’t begin the process of healing from it. If we want to live a life of harmony amongst ourselves and with each other the main goal should be exposing greed for what it is and how it ruins us not only individually but collectively as a whole.
History has proven time and time again that the emotion of greed causes the corruption which in turn causes the downfall of a civilization. I think it is time to replace greed with the respect we need for ourselves, towards other individuals and as a whole for our species. If we keep going the way we are going we will wipe out our very own existence. Most would rather be free from this sickness but are caught up in the moment and don’t know how to escape from it. This may be how we are out of balance within ourselves and as a whole.
By using this as a base we will then be able to show how it is intertwined in all aspects of our lives and even how it is used to control us through the msm by the 1%.
Again it is only a thought and I would love any feed back on this.

You mean like this country is in grave danger, at the hands of the ever contagious, ever addicting, sickness of greed. Once again your words have me thinking. Give me a little bit on that, I was distracted for a second. I will come back to this.

@gavemehope. Please take your time. Sometimes thinking is a work in progress. Yes, the message would be something along those lines. I'm not too sure if the word grave danger describes what I'm trying to say. I will have to think on that. The immportance of the role greed plays and the damages it does to us all the way around should be understood. Saying it outright may not be workable but I think it should be part of the process at least.

I would suggest avoiding terms like, "Grave danger" and such ominous portends. Fear is the tool of liars.

Thank you skoalbite for bringing this to my attention. That is not the message I want to give. I was trying to brake the chains of fear through understanding.

Exactly :)

Now we are catching on, nice catch@skoalbite. "fear is the tool of liars " Excellent framing there. You too white feather. You know breaking the chains of fear isn't so bad either .You guys are getting this stuff quick. Some really smart person turned me on to this. I hope you read it. Sorry wasn't trying to be negative feather, but it does seem we are understanding it better. Must be doing something right.

http://berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2003/10/27_lakoff.shtml

If you do, tell me what you think.

That's probably the best summation of what the conservative think tanks are doing, it really makes me angry how subliminal it all is, and how easily everyone buys it. I by nature hear things framed in this way and react with hostility. It should be taught in Pre-K.

Repeat after me. methodical, patient, distracting, persuasive, subliminal, repetitive manipulation.

@skoalbite It is a really great article that shows billions of dollars are thrown at think tanks every year, by the people who have the money to inflict these things on us. It really has been going on a long time. Education, and spreading this knowledge, and making people aware is our best weapon against it. Kinda frightening isn't it ? I am going to have to read more of his stuff. We should hire this man to do this. You think he would be interested in fighting this, maybe writing another book ? I hope so the world could use it.

We need to see how successfully we can disseminate what he's already said, check this out: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=george+lakoff&aq=f

Greetings,

It gives me hope to see so many people working for the same goal :-) The message has always been there for those paying attention folks. Neither the legislators nor the media have been paying attention.

The message all along has been to fix this country. The only things we differ on is the what needs to to be fixed and how we go about doing the fixing.

Everybody has been saying this whether the poster realizes it or not. Don't believe me... read what you have been posting. Redistribute the wealth, remove money from politics, legalize pot :-) This differs from the Tea Party members trying to disband the EPA; if there was no need for the EPA it would never have been created.

As for the subliminal crap and think tanks. Who cares what they try? If you exercise critical thought on your own they cannot win. If you feel you do not know enough about a subject, take the time and put out the effort to learn about that subject.

Some might note that, at times, I will make a statement and then I will post a URL to a source that confirms and supports my statement or claim. This is done to preclude somebody that disagrees with me from simply dismissing what I have said or any claim I have made and so any one reading can verify what I have said to be true.

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Nobody Important

Thanks guys. I really liked what George Lakoff says. I read the article and watched the 5 minute clip. It's great how he breaks it down into it's most simple form for all to understand. I have so much to learn.
I am glad skoalbite had my back and pointed it out to me when I started straying from the path I want to go down. Gavemehope thank you for the words of encouragment you have given me over the last couple days. I really thought respect for others had fled the country. So very happy to see it has not. It is giving me much to think about. I am going to watch the rest of Lakoff's videos and do some thinking so please don't think I disappeared if I don't respond to what you are saying right away. I just need to take a step back and think about how to say what it is I want to say to bring the understanding without inducing fear. Again I want to thank you both.
@Nobody_Important. In resonse to 'As for the subliminal crap and think tanks. Who cares what they try? If you exercise critical thought on your own they cannot win. If you feel you do not know enough about a subject, take the time and put out the effort to learn about that subject.' I agree with what you are saying but I think it is just as important in how you say it.

@whitefeather

I dislike bullies or those that try to lie to people to get what they want or those that try to manipulate information to get what they want.

It is sad that these tactics work at any level and speaks to our educational and social systems.

We are the few and the few are the many.

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Nobody Important