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Note: The opinions expressed by the moderators and members of this discussion board do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Occupy Together or Occupy Wall St. In the spirit of free information, open discussion, and the freedom of expression, members are able to speak about issues relating and directly pertaining to the Occupy movement. You will be banned for hate speech or intentional misinformation and please refrain from any violent rhetoric; this is a peaceful movement. Thank you.
The Uses of Feminist and Womanist Theory for Occupy.
  • SeaSea January 2012 +1 -1 (+1 / -0 )
    — é ÷ × —

    I read a lot, and read and post on occupycafe.org and on this site, and I do interoccupy.org conference calls, and I am active in Sacramento's Occupy community. I feel confident in saying that misunderstandings of Marx, along with what women have written since World War 2, underlies a lot of our discussion. Both are extremely deep. Like a person who knows a little about a complicated machine, we know just enough to screw things up by preventing us from deciding on a winning plan. Thus I think Occupy can't focus on a winning plan because we aren't steeped in — not the class consciousness Marx — the physicist Marx. Consciousness is very tricky, more so than physics. A corollary of this is that we need to be steeped in feminist and womanist theory because I assert that women's feeding activity is the most primary physical thing about our existence. Following their thought also indicates that consciousness is very tricky. Both Marx, and feminist and womanist work, has a physics dimension and a consciousness dimension.

    Womanist theory is about black women and other women who don't fit the mold of a privileged "white" feminist. But both ideas challenge conventional thinking. The question of how the creators of life (women) have become lessened in the eyes of those they create, thereby elevating men, implies a need to change our scientific historical and religious ideas. Thus a grounding in feminist and womanist theory would help prepare one for an active intellectual role in devising a new world system. The problem is that patriarchal ideas actually arose out of a world where women had higher status, and people receive little education in these areas. Feminist and womanist theory can be used to inform the education of future citizens concerned with the concerns of Occupy. The history of women are examples of everyday people doing things which a growing patriarchal system eventually hid. The power men gained during the Ice Ages when women had to depend on them for food, is still invested in men. Women haven't gotten it back yet. A physics of feeding would underly such a change. F=MA is a physics of male force. F=M/A is a physics of female feeding.

    If Occupy enunciates the essential grievances of all people — though the details vary from region to region — it can work out the details once it gains the allegiance of all the people of the world, which feminist and womanist theory and feeding physics concur upon. Otherwise we use force physics at the behest of various patriarchal secular and sectarian and economic interest groups who have more to gain by fighting than by cooperating. The reason Occupy's "privileged" members can presume to speak with and work with the oppressed in other countries is because we have learned things that the world wants us to apply, through the United Nations.

    The idea of a feeding physics, based on the innate feeding capacity of women and Earth, and connected to the logical mathematical variables of Newton, Marx, and California Native Indians, is introduced in the discussions here titled: "How to Disagree", "Evolution of Capitalism", "Global Debt Jubilee", "Wanting to Be Indian", "It Has to Start Somewhere", and "Strategy-Labor-Environment". I also put forward the feminist and womanist thesis that includes the feeding physics using Newton's, Marx's, and Indigenous variable in the discussion "Has Occupy Hit a Wall". In that last discussion I essentially said that all the isms, proposals, and ideas circulating in Occupy, and most importantly its O-C-C-U-P-Y in your face attitude, need to be put through a focusing lens that social physical and spiritual theory provides, once we get past patriarchy.

    Law and science are based on observation and theory. For Occupy to win, its observations and its theory, its worldview (gone into below) must be the best and have the allegiance of all people. The one thing that can be imposed by us which doesn't give power to the top and which people will buy in to is having everyone being fed food. The mess governments have created is because law and science ignores the primacy of women. Yet we will have to convince many in Occupy that this is so. Feminist and womanist theory is about changing physics from force to feeding. Such avoids totalitarian accusations while it accomplishes the goal of ending greed and providing jobs.

    The nascent USA, the colonists, rallied around Philidelphia. Philly today is trying to organize CoCs (Committes of Correspondence). Occupy may not be able to rally around them. Philly is held up deciding whether "leading functionaries" should be men or women, or a man and a woman. If we can't get past patriarchal observation and theory, — observation and theory being defined as a worldwide system of history/memory, science/learning, and religion/belief — and if we can't recognize that Aristotle and Newton ignored women, and if we can't recognize that indigenous people who the USA is still "genociding", have a superior system of thought, then Occupy will fail.

    I am trying to weave a strategy so Occupy can win. Winning doesn't mean taking control of the world. But I think it should mean to take control of one thing, totally. That would be to feed everyone. Now I know this sounds odd. The idea of "ending world hunger" has been conceived more than once. Each nation should be able to control its on situation. So for me to advocate feeding everyone requires a lot of explanation. I will try to explain that this is not a argument for a "totalitarian" regime, or for a world dominated by the United Nations, or for people to lose civil and economic liberties

    It involves a feeding physics that is different than Newton's force physics, yet it uses the same variables mass and acceleration, as in f=ma. It calculates the force of capital, which is food before it is anything else, though it turns in to many goods and services and in to money. I'm suggesting that women are the originators of feeding and food and thus capital, and that by altering Newton's equation, we can calculate exactly how to feed everyone. If Occupy had the power to do this, I suggest it would remove most causes for social conflict. I will continue explaining this bit by bit. Please see my other postings, as I look at various aspects of this strategy, which becomes a new education for us.

    This is new for me although I started working on theory in the mid-80s. The 60s taught me that one becomes two and then becomes much more. That idea was hidden away in my mind. Once I encountered feminist and womanist theory, and was eventually led to economics, it occurred to me that the way to "end war" — I started on this mission at quite a young age — was to feed everyone. Awareness of women taught me that they are our primary feeders. So now I am developing a physics of feeding, a "feeding physics" to balance Newton's "force physics". And the theory and history I am spinning heavily involves what women have taught the world once societies began freeding them from the bondage a few hundred years ago. Having said that, its also true that women in some places have great freedom. I know this is controversial. Please join this discussion of how to use the strength and wisdom of women to solve world problems, to accomplish the "as yet unclarified" things that Occupy wants to do.

    Agrees: stringband

  • SeaSea January 2012 +1 -1
    The idea begins that obviously we're in a dire predicament and whereas it may be that even this discussion board is posted to much more by men than women, and whereas most of the intellectual content of our "formal" education is written or framed by men — without in the least suggesting that woman's intellectual and educational influence on our lives isn't very fundamental and basic and indeed in the primary grades women are our teachers, not to mention the "only" teacher for the infant which Mary Wollstonecraft and Charlotte Perkins Gillman and many other women have pointed out, and further not to mention that Abigail Adams warned her husband that the USA wouldn't work if it didn't "free" women and slaves — yet two observations seem to throw light on the above. Throughout recorded history men have tried to keep women out of schools and universities and have suppresed what they did, and women teachers today use the "formalized" curricula and books of men. Of course Nel Nodding and others (including men) are making inroads in to this. So since we're in a dire predicament and since "formal" curricula and "school" books, not to mention Congress, cabals, cartels, and Roman Catholicism being all male dominated, it may very well be that if we had much more straight-forward intellectual and political leadership from women, we might be in better shape or have different problems. :)

    It turns out that women have done a lot of intellectual work in this area that is still being suppressed. Economics is always male dominated and ignores the economic influence of women that isn't measured by the GNP, which if measured would completely change how economic discussions are conceived. I suggest that this is where feminist and womanist theory is critical for the future of Occupy.

    For me feminist and womanist theory is about hard science. Science dominates our age — people refer to prehistoric ages, ancient and classical ages, the age of enlightenment — along with industry and egalitarian ideas. Yet "science" is still thought of as technology with which to do things that have dubious consequences. So maybe Occupy could study how "hard" feminist and womanist science is good for us. To do this though will require getting past the "Bill Gates" or "Warren Buffet" syndrome. It will require doing a double-take or deja-vu or a slip in to surrealism and the theatre of the absurd, and emerge out of the Wardrobe or back through the Looking Glass, back in to the real situation of "Occupied" territory. I refer here to the legal status of land that is stolen from indigenous people who are usually very heavily influenced by women, compared to the stealers.

    — é ÷ × —
  • SeaSea January 2012 +1 -1
    I think we've heard a lot about just about every issue, and the question has been raised can we focus enough to actually do something about it? I think history and theory provides the starting point to focus scientific development of ideas that people need, in this case what the 99% need. I am offering feminist and womanist theory as a continuation of the work of Karl Marx, and I think "capital" is the actual subject matter of his magnum opus that was titled "Das Kapital", and is seen as a study of capitalism. Is it possible that looking at capital, with out the "ism", can help us understand what is the actual female and woman behind the need for feminist and womanist theory? And if capital is seen as originating with women themselves (which I am suggesting is the case), then it might be felt necessary to really look at capital and its relationship with women and their men. And unfortuantely I feel to compelled to lay on another layer of complexity right at the start. This is that the "capital" that seems to be so central to the world economy and USA domination and corruption, is actually the wealth that the USA stole from Native Americans and other indigenous people. Other countries use of capital, though less than the USA, also got started by stealing. Marx called it "primitive accumulation". I don't think feminist and womanist theory has gotten too explicit in this direction. Yet this is where I'm trying to go. See Part VIII of "Capital". I will try to bring in what women have said about the "value" of their work which isn't counted in the GNP and for which they aren't paid and which they are actually "forced" to do given social exigencies. Marx saw the physical origin of things we take for granted, following Newton who saw the physical origin of other things we take for granted. Their analyses using m and a in the case of Newton and using s and v in the case of Marx, both provide keen mathematical logic to reveal what happens when you multiply m times a or when you divide s by v. For me to now connect women with the origins of m and s, requires me to show how patriarchy conditions s and v.

    I use s to mean food, and it has variously been called: production, movement, substance, labor, movement, surplus labor, and constant capital. I use v to mean hoarding and it has variously been called: consumption, rest, magnitude, value, surplus value, and variable capital. Occupy should fashion a physics that only involves numbers that refer to things that patently exist, within and about homes and houses, on Earth. I claim that s ÷ v is as provable as m × a. I call s and v the "fair feeding variables".

    By studying the strength of women I think I have learned that capitalism is just a word, while capital is very real. Ignoring the consequences of capitalism is like ignoring gravity. I have looked hard at Marx. I think his two variables s and v can stand for the total mass of food, and the distortion of its value by money, respectively.

    I will continue this discussion by stating that hoarding is the patriarchal method of distorting things. Dividing s by v reveals this. Multiplying m times a creates the possibility of massive ecological and economic destruction, way beyond what we've seen so far. Dividing s by v is a way of being fair. Multiplying m times a is way of being unfair. Dividing s by v is fair feeding feminist and womanist math. Multiplying m times a is destructive patriarchal math.
    — é ÷ × —
  • SeaSea January 2012 +1 -1
    So the uses of feminist and womanist theory for Occupy is to give it deeper understanding of science. I assume that all kinds of knowledge, certainly scientific knowledge including my "feeding physics" ( f = m ÷ a ), has physical mental/emotional and spiritual dimensions. Feeding physics accords with women being our primary feeders. Its tied to the whole western modern science tradition (WMS) starting with Aristotle thru Newton and Marx and down to systems theory today. Its consistent with ancient texts and ancient knowledge. It was actually inspired by the Native American variables (4dq) and (amr) which correspond to Marx's s and v and Newton's m and a. It poses TEK (traditional ecological knowledge) as the mate of WMS (western modern science).

    I see the only way that Occupy can succeed is through work keyed to the United Nations — albeit recognizing the extreme controversy surrounding it and the USA and the international banking system. Well the United Nations bases its decisions for good or bad on the science of women, Marx, and Newton. So since feminist and womanist theory extends these fields in to feeding physics and a way of teaching it that empowers people to control their own lives, including "new energy" and dismantlling of corporate power and de-deploying armies, feminist and womanist theory can be very useful.

    I only mean that TEK and Native Americans, as exhibited by their (4dq) and (amr) variables, which correspond respectively to Newton's ** m and a variables, and Marx's s and v — see P 304 in the Intl Publishers ed and P 332 in the Modern Library ed of Marx's "Capital" — variables, are variables which can be used to distribute property fairly. I call them the fair feeding variables. So whereas excessive private property is a problem, fair private consumption of food might be a solution.

    I'm suggesting that Native American TEK teaches this. And I'm not trying to romanticize about an ideal Native American society. Simply that their knowledge, including their knowledge of physics, might help Occupy balance how we've been force fed WMS knowledge. See F. David Peat's "Blackfoot Physics". I'm arguing that TEK and WMS are both "provable" by the conventions of HSRS, and that we might need both, to solve our problems. HSRS is merely a holistic conception of history, perceived as a system.

    ** They correspond when you divide m by a, whereas Newton multiplied m times a. His m stands for the mass of food, and his a stands for the acceleration of people who are fed in a feeding physics.
  • SeaSea January 2012 +1 -1
    Look at what has been put before us. Civil disobediance against banks corporations govt, etc. "New Energy". Various variations on economic change. Use high tech communications. Expose Washington DC corruption. Jail rich criminals. Reject all candidates. Occupy Occupy Occupy, anything and everything.

    All of these ideas are limted by existing social conventions, legal requirements, einsteinian physics, systems theory, and the internet not being dysfunctional, etc.

    Well if the knowledge of women can reduce some of the limits, then it would be good. If you will bear with me, that is what I am explaining. Its that the biggest fraud, corporate crime, diabolical cabalistic scheme, or crime against humanity, comes from our patriarchal system having prevented women from teaching more fully what they have to teach. And this is 100% identical to the experience of Native Americans who are still trying to teach after five-hundred years of genocide.
  • SeaSea February 2012 +1 -1
    The strategy is to gain the support of all people, and they can access our plans through the internet. A plan enunciated to feed everyone. An actual science of people to people sharing that empowers each to reduce the controlling influence of law nation and money. The science is the age-old science people have been developing that started with women and continues with women with men doing their part. Feminist and womanist theory, though seen as radically at odds with "the way things are", actually develops all the human powers and capabilities needed for Occupy to succeed. But its not like "male" theory has no place. Indeed Newton and Karl Marx are men. But their ideas haven't taken us to the place of feeding everyone yet. Women can do that. Then people will have the power to change the world from the bottom up.

    Feminist and womanist theory facilitates freedom and bottom up control. The world's ruling ideas are biased from patriarchy. Patriarchy is actually capable of requiring/convincing/brain-washing people in to thinking that male led armies are inevitable. Feminist and womanist theory extends Marx to show how they may not be inevitable. See Steven Goldberg's "The Inevitability of Patriarchy". It needs to be refuted.

    Economic theory is pretty complex and people for the most part don't read the original Marx. Feminist and womanist theory suggests a direct origin of capital in a woman's feeding body. Thus food is the original capital that finally becomes money. Marx explains labor value becoming money. The labor of women producing children both precedes and follows that sequence.
  • SeaSea February 2012 +1 -1
    I have been discussing the strategy for Occupy to win, that includes discerning the physics of politics, where physicality is seen to include physical, mental/emotional, and spiritual dimensions. The way we do it is informed by the theoretical underpinnings we work with. Theoretical underpinnings are more useful than ideology or philosophy in general, whether historical scientific or religious. I have said that WMS and TEK are the yin and yang of worldviews. Newton and Marx (WMS' western modern science), are the two recognized big thinkers in these areas, which women and indigenous people (TEK's traditional ecological knowledge) are increasingly influencing. Men, along with patriarchal women and men, started loosening their strangle-hold a few centuries ago. Feminist and womanist theory cause us to focus on ethics more. With political power we will have to make tough decisions. The influence of women is setting us up to do the right thing.
  • lilmorecountry February 2012 +1 -1
    it's clear rick santorim is a pigheaded tool , but that doesn't stop him from being compleetly right about women in the front lines ... this isn't a money scheme it's fucking war , and men don't need to hear the screams of a dying woman as they fight back ... a mans place is to fight for women , there is more than a sexual organ that divides a man and a women if women truly want = rights they should realize that infact most women are physically weaker then men ... of coarse there are some aceptions , and maybe those aceptions are what women should fight for , not women as a whole ... i have no idea what this guy wrote about but i thought i'd make a short point reguardless ...
  • Cookie_Parker February 2012 +1 -1
    I wish clarity and brevity could enter into your discussion. It's very verbose, but I think you have something important to say about this movement.

    Personally, I think remembering nonviolence is more forceful than physical force, and that we need to separate business and the government, as well as stopping the income gap and making a strong middle class, we are all on the right physics of the movement.

    Am I too vague?
  • SeaSea February 2012 +1 -1
    @cookie_parker,
    Your statement about needing clarity and brevity certainly isn't vague. Thanks for reading my verbose introduction to the topic. I wanted to say a lot, to sort of frame possible approches to feminist and womanist theory, because I think its extremely important to Occupy.

    I agree that remembering nonviolence is forceful. I mentioned Newton's "force" physics so to contrast it with the possibility of conceiving of science and physics, in terms of women. I think its arguable that women were/are forced out of important discussions, so that them "forcing" their way in now, is a really good improvement in our world. I mean to discuss how patriarchy messes things up.