Many important concepts to be considered here. Much more than "intuition" is being discussed. One very important issue is how framing (underlined) the question is so important because of the automatic associations that are provoked in the mind that would then influence interpretation and judgment (discussed around 48 mins.). Capitalist masters use these techniques routinely in their sales and propaganda practically forcing people to predetermined reactions (gross manipulation) expressing the systemic pervasive nature of their power and influence and the urgent need for the movement to establish an alternative lifestyle i.e., economic structure / system that would scramble such dysfunctional "associations" the basis of many counterproductive "intuitions" and "operant" (Pavlovian) conditionings / indoctrinations. Capitalism is the default option we live under. "We can be manipulated by setting default options to quite a remarkable degree" (51 mins.). Given this lesson, before a question is answered we must first determined how and why it was framed the way it was. That would often give us clues about the possible hidden assumption(s) / intent of the issue or question (the questioner may or may not be conscious of that himself / herself) that need to be addressed before we give a response. The same is true when we pose a question or raise an issue in a social setting. Our statements will tell much about the framework of our mind / our individual interests and intentions and / or that of the economic system which has conditioned us.

These "associative coherances" also explain simplistic answers to novel and / or complicated questions leading to quick and false judgments and opinions (52 mins.). The implication being for me that we need to know our audience well in social situations and break down important issues to its simpler components and then graduate to more complex issues / questions where the increased number of variables are understood and better mental computations can be performed.

Earlier on the video he demonstrated how simple equations with few variables (i.e., rudimentary "science") is better at predicting than most "experts". An important lesson I take is why we must move beyond "intuition" (system 1), and "reasoning" (system 2) to a more sophisticated yet facile (if we chose to practice it and become skillful at it) "scientific" analysis and reaction (system 3) if we are serious about our struggle and "evolution"/"revolution".

I agree. Using We can do that by learning we can question beliefs without threatening the person. For example if I get mad or hurt I haven't identified something that hurt my feelings and discussed that with the other person. We need to learn how our words are being perceived. This is based on science and emotional reactions can be predicted. Business uses this to manipulate but people can learn how to do this for betterment of the world also. Doing it for good though requires getting rid of the preconceptions and learning how to communicate in posative ways. That is not what corporatists do or even learn to do. There is a system that teaches this but it is only known to a limited number of people. It works with people in poverty, criminal justice, corporations, marriages, etc. If we want the world to change we have to talk to each other honestly and not talk past each other.

Once we learn how to talk to each other and not past each other through mutual respect of each other, then we stand a good chance of re-educating ourselves.

I think, first of all, we need to stop to face the individual on the side (at work, at school, in the neighborhood, etc.) as an opponent, a competitor...
That must be the worst thing that our system made to our society's ethos - compete rather than collaborate.

Whitefeather you are right. Unfortunately people have not been taught how to do it. It has to start with understanding people are all basically the same. We all want to be loved and accepted, be productive and happy. If people have never learned those skills of getting, keeping, avoiding and escaping problems through positive reinforcement as children they will get attention negatively which leads to anger and further self-defeating beliefs. It is so ingrained in peoples minds they don't realize why they are motivated as these beliefs are learned by the age of 12. We have to quit assuming everyone believes or thinks as that person does. We have to start talking to each other without attacking each other. Learning how to do this is a skill that is fairly easy to teach but people have to have the information. How many of you will trust someone that doesn't see past the public mask to the real person underneath? How many people understand that as children if we haven't learned positive skills we develop skills to compensate that provide a short term feel good response but with long term negative consequences. For example people feel good temporarily about resucing but ultimately are hurt as people turn from them. To help all of us we need to understand all have some problems in varying degree's. Those are beliefs and we can talk about those issues without threating the person. We all need to learn those skills. We also need to understand we all comprehend the world-think and learn differently which is why it is critical to understand how to use tools to learn that. If you are a visual learner you won't see what a feeling/doing learner feels so tools to bridge the gap are critical. It can be done fairly simply but I only know of one person who has developed this kind of comprehensive system and it works. Interestingly she has recently been in contact with some very high placed people that hopefully will give her access to current people looking for answers. This system would fix our schools, start affecting povery, help deal with not only our relationships but also world relationships. There is also information coming out of a global financial reallignment that will be for the good of the 99%. I have been doing research on this and if true we should start hearing more details later this month. If interested check out the lawsuit filed by Neil Keenan in the southern district of NY regarding a global conspiracy that has been coming for a while. I have to wonder if the EU summitt could be the forum. Anyway, this is off topic. Once we learn forgiveness of our own issues we are free to move to different levels. I wish well for all.

The solution will never come from the capitalist ruling class. The ruling class is identified with capitalism. The job of a capitalist is to maximize profit and let capital grow, otherwise be ruthlessly and competitively replaced - that is the history of the "successful" capitalists i.e., follow "the rule of jungle", "kill or be killed". Expect no more than Trojan Horses from them as your "global financial reallignment" suggests. Remember that is how they pushed their "gloabalist" agenda forward - not to mention "UN", "European Union", "Bank Bailouts", "Obamacare", etc. etc. We cannot expect the capitalists (as a class) to become anti-capitalists (although individually some of them may become so). The nearly 10,000 year history of economic systems based on private ownership do not provide any exceptions, including the over 500 year history of capitalism itself. Capitalists will abandon capitalism when they will be forced to i.e., for fear of survival - when the new alternative economic system (based on common ownership) will not leave them any room to claim any private ownership or private power.

All people are by default / by "force" (i.e., not of any "free will") born into capitalism. This system of exploitation, even before their birth, influences EVERY aspect of their life, from the blood / genes / epigenetic factors that jump start their makeup, to the environment that affects their physical / mental development, health, and socioeconomic class / lifestyle, to the cause / circumstances of their death. This overwhelming level of influence is incredibly complicated on an individual level, acting on multiple psychological levels from the conscious to subconscious and emotional levels (e.g., sleep and dreams, impulses, etc.) affecting our ideology (i.e., worldview, logic), morality, spirituality, cultural preferences (e.g., aesthetics), and politics (e.g., ideas). Ultimately, all these factors stemming from the SYSTEMIC EFFECTS of capitalism strengthened by a SYSTEMIC REPETITIVE REINFORCEMENT create an illusion / delusion / spell that allbeit virtual and transitory (created and maintained by the immense costs of capitalism exploited from the species and the planet) is hard to avoid falling for. That is how our thoughts, attitudes, and behavior give expression to such an influence in a variety of levels. This is especially true if one lives "individually" i.e., devoid of a global social consciousness and class consciousness.

The point is that it is not enough to brush off the influence of capitalism on our deeper consciousness just based on the simplicity of its unsustainable propositions and dysfunctional conduct. We must demonstrate and become conscious of all the many "superstructural" levels (e.g., genetic, epigenetic, developmental, psychologic, ideologic, spiritual, moral, cultural, political, etc.) in which capitalism influences us to resist its grip and more importantly understand the immense importance of crafting / adopting an economic system that avoids such destruction and the necessary illusions / delusions for maintaining its rule. However, even this recognition and treatment is not enough. Fundamentally and strategically, any work at the level of superstructure must be backed up by a greater work at the level of infrastructure, i.e., economics. Practically, the most effective (although not the only) way to resist and fight the capitalist exploitation, would be to implement economic experiments aimed at replacing the private ownership exploitative method of economic existence under capitalism by the common ownership cooperative method of the new economic system. In this way people will necessarily have to discover and address the other interrelated superstructural issues as they struggle with the added incentive of surviving outside and beyond capitalism.

Below is another video that exposes some of these influence levels. There are 25 in the series, and although it is titled Behavioral Biology its scope is wider than that. I have extensive professional background on the subjects presented and consider the presenter / professor as one of the more skeptics and better presenters especially with regards to his "broader" interdisciplinary and historical approach. Nevertheless, we should always practice restraint in accepting the conclusions with anyone, especially those of any academician / technocrat given their necessary close screening and control by the establishment / state / capitalism as well as their rather artificial relative comfort (i.e., class position as "small bourgeoisie") susceptible to a relatively more "conservative" bias or critic than someone exposed to a more precarious economics / lifestyle. This would necessarily be difficult for many of those with little background on the subject as well as a depth of understanding for the concept of "class consciousness". So I hope we can learn to learn the information without "owning" the ideas in a way that most of us do i.e., identifying them with an inflated concept of "ego". Of course, that does not mean "group think bias" i.e., avoiding opposing views for the mere sake of avoiding conflicts. This approach should help us discuss the ideas much more openly and switch / adjust our positions in a "collectivist / cooperative and dialectic learning method" which could greatly enhance our "individual" learning.



And one of the more provocative lectures (especially the part after around 1 hr.) presented as a teaser. But I consider this a more advanced topic, i.e., requiring much more knowledge of the other topics presented in other parts of the lecture series for a more productive analysis especially with respect to "cooperation" and other social issues relevant to OWS.

We already have the Programers Guide, it's called the Bible.

The Damnable thing about is, the translations.

Who's doing the Reading, right.

If we wish to enlighten folks, understanding the Programers Guide is Key, then we explain why something is Sin or what ever, just about everything meaningful in the Bible has a Legitimate reason, it's just not ever very clear.

I'm sure some will ridicule I for being a simple minded monkey, and clinging to my out dated Programing, but hay after two thousand years of persecutions, us poor Christians are use to it.

I will point out, the first rule of keeping a Slave a Slave, is to never teach them the Bible.

If the Capitalists erased something from our social programing, it probably came from the Bible.

The Capitalist did not build this house, the Common Man did, and they did it with the social conduct they learned from the Bible.

Most of our social ill's come from the Lack of Monies and the Love of Monies, two sides of the same coin.


Level the economic playing field, remove the socioeconomic walls that people of means have erected in our Laws, and mind the moral hazards, as they are failings of us all, thus the laws must protect us from our inner weaknesses.

That's a tall order, we must ask ourselves at each turn:

Is it Wise, is it Righteous, is it Just and is it Equal Justice Under Law( to the best of our ability )

"It is to be regretted that the rich and powerful too often bend the acts of government to their selfish purposes. Distinctions in society will always exist under every just government. Equality of talents, of education, or of wealth can not be produced by human institutions. In the full enjoyment of the gifts of Heaven and the fruits of superior industry, economy, and virtue, every man is equally entitled to protection by law; but when the laws undertake to add to these natural and just advantages artificial distinctions, to grant titles, gratuities, and exclusive privileges, to make the rich richer and the potent more powerful, the humble members of society — the farmers, mechanics, and laborers — who have neither the time nor the means of securing like favors to themselves, have a right to complain of the injustice of their government. There are no necessary evils in government. Its evils exist only in its abuses. If it would confine itself to equal protection, and, as Heaven does its rains, shower its favors alike on the high and the low, the rich and the poor, it would be an unqualified blessing." General Andrew Jackson in his Veto Message of the 2nd Bank

“Charity is false, futile, and poisonous when offered as a substitute for justice.” — Henry George

The poor must have some offering of Justice, in this life or the next, for they suffer at the feet of ALL above them.Denying them the concepts of a Just God, a Heaven, and a Hell for all those who trampled and destroyed their families, their Rights, and their dignities, is to leave them in a far worse hell on earth than will ever be known.

Being poor is not really about monies, it's about being meek, the meek need a Just world. One where the Rules are simple, fair, and fallowing the rules is reworded, and breaking the rules is punished, with equality.

Simple Rules, for Simple Monkeys. They do not understand the Complexities of your would, and they don't want too, they want a world that is simple and fair.

They are my Childrans, mind you watch yourself around my little one's, bad things may befall you in this life or the next.

The poor and the weak do not want an all forgiving Lord, they want a Just Lord, one that send those who wrong them to Hell.

Changing the Law does not change the truth, and the truth is there can be no Justice without economic justice, and there can be no liberty without economic liberty.

But Faith offers hope.

“At the bottom of every social problem we will find a social wrong.” — Henry George

It's just not always that easy to tell what it is.

The real reason everyone has gone mental is easy.

Study ye's latin please.

al = ill
ment = monies

Mental = Ill Monies

Temperamental = al ment tempor

tempor = anger

Ill monies anger

temporment = ment temporum
ment = monies
temporum = The Reckoning of Time

De temporum = The Date of the Raising( Easter )

The Banks don't loan monies they have, they create the monies out of thin air, when we repay the loans the monies is gone, "Temporary Monies" The Powers of the ment temporum.

But the Banks are charging interests, and as they collect the loan, they keep the interest for themselves and the friends of the Bank, they never create the monies for the interests, this makes a "money shortage" where everyone is out chasing monies that do not exist to repay our debt, making wages low and keeps everyone borrowing from the banks.

Any monetary system that uses interests is Doomed to fail, it requires ever expanding growth of debt, do the math.

They are using the Powers of the ment temporum in reverse, making the working masses debt slaves, and the friends of the Bank rich beyond all compair.

This makes our economies Temperamental, and all of us al ment tempor.

Most of our social ill's come from the Lack of Monies and the Love of Monies, two sides of the same coin.

This is the true story of:

The whore Hell(an) of troy ( Dis Troy/Destroy )
The whore of Babylon
The whore of the seven hills of Rome

This is what Hitlar, Stalin, and Neopolian all knew.

The Banks can not be reformed only closed.

Bank Monies = Proof of Debt = al ment tempor = Dis Troy = The Raising of the AntiChrist
State Monies = Proof of State = ment temporum = Public Trust = Salvation

Study ye's latin please.

The real reason everyone has gone mental is easy.

Study ye's latin please.

al = ill
ment = monies

Mental = Ill Monies

Temperamental = al ment tempor

tempor = anger

Ill monies anger

temporment = ment temporum
ment = monies
temporum = The Reckoning of Time

De temporum = The Date of the Raising( Easter )

The Banks don't loan monies they have, they create the monies out of thin air, when we repay the loans the monies is gone, "Temporary Monies" The Powers of the ment temporum.

But the Banks are charging interests, and as they collect the loan, they keep the interest for themselves and the friends of the Bank, they never create the monies for the interests, this makes a "money shortage" where everyone is out chasing monies that do not exist to repay our debt, making wages low and keeps everyone borrowing from the banks.

Any monetary system that uses interests is Doomed to fail, it requires ever expanding growth of debt, do the math.

They are using the Powers of the ment temporum in reverse, making the working masses debt slaves, and the friends of the Bank rich beyond all compare.

This makes our economies Temperamental, and all of us al ment tempor.

Most of our social ill's come from the Lack of Monies and the Love of Monies, two sides of the same coin.

This is the true story of:

The whore Hell(an) of troy ( Dis Troy/Destroy )
The whore of Babylon
The whore of the seven hills of Rome

This is what Hitler, Leinen, and Napoleon all knew.

The Banks can not be reformed only closed.

Bank Monies = Proof of Debt = al ment tempor = Dis Troy = The Raising of the AntiChrist
State Monies = Proof of State = ment temporum = Public Trust = Salvation

Study ye's latin please.

Note what is at the root of the word tempor.

por = poor

The poor are angry because they are poor, and the poor are poor because they are angry.

Both are true.

@King_David_James, with all due respect, the title of this thread is "Social Skills for the New Socioeconomic System". You are not even talking about "Social Skills" not to mention the "New Socioeconomic System" that would require such skills for its fruition. Furthermore, we cannot base our very urgent discussions for socioeconomic system change based on a selected albeit popular fictional book of vague and contradictory stories based on historical fragments and astrology. This opens up all sorts of opposing interpretations relying on the nebulous concept of "faith" opening the doors of a pandora's box of endless conflicts which often leads to mortal persecution and wars as history bears witness with ample evidence. The history of exploitative socioeconomic systems, i.e., those based on private ownership starting with the historically necessary (i.e., based on evolutionary) adaptation of agriculture, shows widespread adaptation of religion. Although religion has played at times rebellious (i.e., reformist) roles in history, because of its generally vague character described above dependent on subjective nature of belief or idea rather than the objective nature of economic ownership and conduct, it has always been subject to easy co-option by the ruling class. Furthermore, due to its necessarily hierarchical model of organization and belief system reinforced by rituals and traditions often headed by a supreme entity ("god") and / or its representative (e.g., "the prophet", "Pope", "Ayatollah or Imam", "Dalai Lama", etc.) it is by nature a favorite of the authoritarian ruling class encouraging conformity as "keeping the faith" and suppressing dissent as "enemy of the faith" by extension "god" itself.

I hope you can see that we are well beyond this way outdated institution that has overwhelmingly ended up serving the exploiters and nowadays (with some exceptions) is one of the favorite targets of opportunist psychopath / sociopaths (i.e., not just the Pope or the Ayatollah).

The purpose of this discussion thread is to adapt social skills that would help to facilitate constructive communication and cooperation, fundamentally based on "scientific" evidence, promoting the advancement of OWS's egalitarian anti-establishment non-conformist and non-hierarchical goals. You are welcome to post pertinent comments to this issue, otherwise, I respectfully request that you decline from posting non-relevant comments. I furthermore suggest that you consider continuing your discussions on a separate discussion thread, e.g., Religion, Justice, and Economics.

Equality, Comradery, Solidarity

I. The first rule of keeping a slave is to never teach a slave the Bible.
II. The second Rule of keeping a slave a slave is never teach a slave to read.

English is the language We taught to the Slaves, so they would NOT know how to read.

Study ye's latin please.

There is not a God, there are Gods, and We are they, however if ye wish to remain a YOU far be it for I to stop ye.

Forgive my poor "EDUCATION", I make my points very poorly.

I apologise that I offended, the points I was trying to make are:

Most of our social ill's are a result of the Evil Capitlist System, if we had a system that was not evil, then most of our social ills would vanish, just like Magic.

Capitalism is evil because it reruires Interests/Usury.

Any system that uses interests is Doomed to fail, God has not Doomed it, Math has.

Do the Math.

If we had a State Bank loaning monies out of thin air at no interests and the monies were gone when we repaid our loans, that would not be an Evil system, no investor, no interests, no Capitalists.

My dad told me to tell the Capitalists if they want to invest they should buy the shinny rocks, that is why he put them here.

Because we need the shinny rocks for industry, they will, by and large go up in value over time.

That is my economic system.

" I respectfully request that you decline from posting non-relevant"

While we are on the topic of Social Skills, I respectfully request that "ye" decline from addressing I as "You".

You is a placating term, when I call someone a You, I am saying, I am the Master and You are the Slave, I am the One and You are the Zero, I am the Shepard and You are the Sheep.

That's hardly Equality, Comradery, Solidarity, Now is it?

Everyone knows a "You" is a Sheep, it does not matter how we "Spell/Magic/Trick" it, everyone still knows a "You" is a sheep.

Study ye's latin please.

Comrad, I think that's better than you, I, we, she, he, it Etc. Etc. Etc.

But I like Brother/Sister, it should be clear to all why.

Let's go fly a kite.

So my point about language and Social Skills is we are speaking/writing "Slave Speak".

I think, English is both a Master and a Slave Language, over time our slaves have changed the vernacular, until we have gotten to the point we have now, where "we" are using derogatory terms, when we intend polite speech.

We may not think this matter, but I subject that is does, we pick up on it in our subconcious mind, and it offends us, so we get angree, and polite debate breaks down.

We use to call it "Manners", that is what we have lost, our manners.

There are Good manners and Bad Manners, I do not think manners ever really change, we need to rediscover our manners.

Note I say "We", that includes me, so if I offend thy, when it is not my intent, I apopogise, but I will never be "Sorry".

A God Apolo Gise's

A Slave say's they are "Sorry".

"I know you're sorry, now Apologise", some One was teaching us Good Manners.

"Say you are sorry!" Some One was teaching us to be a Slave.

This stands to reason, when we were the Master/Gods, we had to speak "Eng Lish" to our Slaves, but there is one way to speak to a Slave, and another way to Speak to another Master/God.

So Eng Lish became both a Master/Slave language.

Good Manners = God's Manners
Bad Manners = Slave's Manners

But note, my Good Man, that even the term Mann Ers, implies Man, not Gods.

So it could be said that even Good Manners are just training we got from the Gods of Old.

If we wish a society of equals, we must teach everyone Good Manners, however this does become a challenge, as one Man's "Good Manners" are another Man's offense.

Ideas?

Study ye's latin please.

More on Manners/Social Skills:

It is Bad Manners to go out in Public without getting Dressed.

When was the last time we saw some One wearing a Dress?

We are wearing Slave Cloths, even our finest suits are Monkey Suits, are they not?

Now let us not get carried away, we do not want Goddesses stuffed into "Bee Keeper" Suits, that is not a wise way to treat a Goddess, when they figure out the trick, some one is going to be "Sorry".

The Goddesses are going to enslave any One who kept them in a "Bee Keeper Suit".

Do not get me wrong, any one who wishes to stay in Slave Cloth is free to do so, they are Gods after all, and likewise to go in the Buck.

But it's still Bad Manners.

@King_David_James, you do make some good points that are more pertinent to the issue of adopting "social skills" appropriate to the general goals of the movement. I do agree with consideration of our "language" and "mannerisms" in such an endeavor. One example would be the use of the pronouns but not on the formal sense as your use of archaic "ye" exemplifies ("ye's latin" even within your context should be "your latin" since "your" is the genitive case of the 2nd plural nominative "ye"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ye_(pronoun) ). Rather, based any potential underlying psychology it may perpetuate especially as it relates to the way we subconsciously reinforce the exclusive property relations by excessive use of exclusive pronouns (I, you, he/she/it, they) and the related objective/genitive/possessive counterparts - i.e., relative little use of the inclusive pronoun (we) and the related objective/genitive/possessive counterparts (us, our, ours). On the other hand, this view may be countered by the potential psychological lack of responsibility expressed when the second person pronouns (we, us, our, ours) are used / abused; so the context is essential and worthy of more debate and especially research. I did not find much pertinent research on this subject, and am posting these just based on their subject matter, rather than the quality of research - so please be cautious of assuming the conclusions are correct i.e., "science" does not reveal by one "experiment" not to mention by one "interpretation or conclusion".

http://www.thepsychfiles.com/2011/12/ep-166-the-secret-life-of-pronouns-an-interview-with-james-pennebaker/

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/relationships/what-our-language-choices-reveal-about-our-personalities/article2167646/

Strategically, I have even suggested adopting an alternative language (whether discovered, or invented, based on simplicity and adaptibility to modern applications) for global use, in addition to modification of local languages e.g., English.
http://occupytogether.com/forum/discussion/comment/3022#Comment_3022

I am also somewhat troubled by your repeated use of the word "god" which is a subjective ideal notion not based on any qualifiable or quantifiable concept that could be of any constructive value. In other words, I cannot and I do not believe you will find many who can argue with you based on the notion of what is "godly" or not - not just because, e.g., I am an atheist, but because I cannot use any independently verifiable measure to assess your "godly" assertions or you of my "godly" assertions even if I expressed them as such i.e., unless we delude ourselves in some shallow "godly" common understanding based on no real or consistent evidence in the real world we will be facing many unresolvable conflicts right from the get go. Of course, there are many other such subjective notions that people use / abuse that are cultural or political such as "beauty", "deomcracy", "nationhood", and even "science". But we need to stick or at least start with the more 1) measureable notions that we have to necessarily adopt, and only after clear definitions, and always based on a 2) priority order to serve the social needs of the movement.

manners are laws, they are natural laws.

I believe they are the only laws we need, if we all mined our manners we would not need "Law Enforcement".

It is Bad Manners to offend the Gods of others, no matter how silly they seem.

It gives double offense, once to the one offended, and once to the God, not wise brother, not wise at all.

Bad manners are bad magic, they lead to bad things.

Think about all the Wars from us not respecting the Gods of others, does not mean I like their Gods, I just do not disrespect them, it is bad magic.

However it is also bad manners to harp on about one's gods to one that does not want to hear it.

It is all a system of Honors and Dishonors, and we need to stay in Honor at all times. That is how Court works in a Court of Law.

"Your Honor I"

In Court one may not argue, everyone should know when we argue, we automatically lose the debate, arguing is Dishonorable.

That is the Latin legal frame work, I think.

Manners
Honors
Respects
Rights
Tabos

Every native culture has their own word for it, however it is all the same system, it is the unwritten natural law.

The trouble comes when we write it down, then some evil zero can "Spell/Magic/Trick" it.

They are in dishonor, it is not kind to trick, and everyone knows we should be kind to one another at all times.

It is always the written contracts, is that not how they always steal the land?



All kind of Manners we need to remember.

Every Native culture I can think of wore some sort of Dress/Robe/Kilt and HeadDress and Cape.

Some odd "rules" here, the longer the Cape/Rob/Tails, the more Honor they bring, do not let them touch the ground, unless one is throwing our cape over water, remember.

Same with a HeadDress, the bigger the better, only we throw it in Joy, remember.

The Headdress protects us from "Spell/Magic/Tricks", a Gold Headdress most of all.

Wearing a Headdress in doors does not put us in Dishonor, it does however show we do not trust where we are at, or who we are around, remember the night cap, not the drink, the sleeping HeadDress.



Also the jewelry, and body art bring powers.

It is a lot to remember.

Good Manners are Good Manners, we can mix and match for all the Native cultures, some sort of Dress/kilt/Cape/Robe and Headdress are mandatory to stay in honor.

Remember it was the Damned Empires that defeated us all and took us out of our Native Dress.

To recapture to Common Goodness of Natural Man, this would go a long way.

Remember we have Good Magic and Bad Magic, when we offend, it does not just go away, we stay in "Dishonor" until we cast a "Spell/Words" to get back in Honor.

Just like in Court, the Judge will give one chance to get back in Honor, if one "Steps in it".


It seems like a lot of work, however really I think it things we all know, and have forgotten.

We must teach one another to stay in Honor, we do it now, we call it political correctness, however that can abused just like Bad Manners/Magic.

It is really self censor ship, not in what we say, just how we say it.

Law Enforcement should be us, we should teach each other how to stay in honor with one another, without going down the "Trail of Dishonors", we should give other a chance to get back in honor, and help them do it without turning them into a "Zero".

One last small joke, that is also, I believe true.

"But", everyone knows it is Bad Manners to show our "But", it does not matter how we "Spell/Magic/Trick" it, it is clear to all I just showed my "But".

Let us got fly a kite.

"manners are laws, they are natural laws."
If they were we wouldn't need to discuss them, and choose among them. They would just happen...like "magic"! That is why I started this discussion thread, and that is what OWS needs to discover.

"However it is also bad manners to harp on about one's gods to one that does not want to hear it.
It is all a system of Honors and Dishonors, and we need to stay in Honor at all times. That is how Court works in a Court of Law. "
It is the worst of manners to insist on existence of a fantasy (call it "god", "spirit", etc.), and expect others to believe in it without evidence. The "system of Honors and Dishonors" and the "Court of Law" are to be respected if and only if there is equal power and representation based on objective evidence, rather than fantasy / tradition / faith / etc. Do not ask people to be fools and suckers! That is what OWS is fighting against.

"Law Enforcement should be us, we should teach each other how to stay in honor with one another, without going down the "Trail of Dishonors", we should give other a chance to get back in honor, and help them do it without turning them into a "Zero"."
The problem with that is how to decide what law? who decides the right interpretation? who will enforce its correct application? In other words calling it a "law" does not make it "the law", it makes it "your law". If it was that easy we would not be in such a huge mess, and harkening back to an idealized native past is naive at best. Again, do not ask people to be fools and suckers!! We have too much of it and it is killing us. Sorry, but I do not respect ignorance in no matter what wrapping it comes with. Remember, "the way to hell is paved with good intentions". We need to prove our way out of this mortal crisis, rather than "honor" our way out with sanctimonious absurdities.

Sorry, but no kite flying until you prove and act with "good manners" rather than just self-righteously talk about them. And please "self-sensor" the word or concept of "god" and other unprovable concepts especially in such technical discussions of "social skills", they are a waste of time and energy at best and often serve to divide us, i.e., the epitome of "bad manners" within the context of the urgent problems OWS is trying to tackle.

"I am also somewhat troubled by your repeated use of the word "god" which is a subjective ideal notion not based on any qualifiable or quantifiable concept that could be of any constructive value."

Did I ask YOU your troubles, no I did not, I did not ask YOU your troubles, I thank You to keep your troubles to your self.

Stop trying to censor I, and stop trying to dismiss I.

I do not belong to You, get it straight.

One of us is the "King" and the other the "Slave".

Your troubles with "Gods" are your troubles, I will say any thing I would like to say, I did not ask your permission, nor will I, ever.

Religious bigotry is a from of Hate speech, everyone knows it is a form of Hate Speech, Everyone.

Hate speech is banned by this forum, is it not, yes, yes it is, it is banded, everyone knows it, everyone.

Dismissing Religion as made up stories is foolish, any "educated" one knows that.

Trying to destroy Nations and Religions is just another Genocidal Empire.

Genocidal maniacs, hiding behind "Math and Science", to steal, rape, murder and enslave native cultures, that's just the same old story it's always been.

We're all just to stupid to live in "Your World" aren't we, you're the "Educated Man", and we're "Killing the world", so You and your ilk need to "Save the world".

"Save the World", that's funny I thought that was Jesus's Job.

How You going save the world, with "TAX".

Tax, no thanks, Jesus don't charge, every ONE knows that Jesus Saves.

"Trying to destroy Nations and Religions is just another Genocidal Empire."
Next thing you are going to say is that 'trying to destroy capitalism is just another Genocidal Empire'. The history of Religion on this planet speaks for itself. As for science, it is not a belief system like religion, it is a tool. Science is an experimental endeavor with nature ultimately the judge, i.e., prove it or shut up! I will apply that same measure to myself as to any self-righteous or scoundrel person.

Capitalists will use religion and science to exploit the working class and the environment. Religion offers nothing constructive to build on since it is fundamentally based on "the supernaturals" and "the other world". As such, it is at best a "neutral" attribute, and at worst, as you have started to reveal, a disruptive anti-social element based on arbitrary and impulsive fabrications and delusions rooted in private ownership / private interest that could suddenly turn on you - as evidenced by the long history of not just conflicts between religions but within religions. No wonder the guy who just in the last post was claiming "let us go fly a kite" is now relating me to "genocidal maniacs". Whereas, he has consistently been the "metaphysical idealist", unpredictable, manipulative, and manipulatable "lost soul" rooted in a rootless fantasy of "Jesus" et al. haplessly unaware of his service to the private interests of private ownership (facilitating exploitation even of his own, as in capital) which his "soulmates" have provided for millenia in the name of "god(s)" and "natural laws".

Save "your Jesus" for your afterlife insurance if you need to. Meanwhile, we have to attend to real matters in this life. "Your Jesus" has not been helping, in fact he seems to have decided to side with the oppressors long time ago. So unless you have something to prove that will be worthy of the movement's attention for its dire needs in this real life and world, expect nothing better than an IGGY at best.

" haplessly unaware of his service to the private interests of private ownership "

I'm aware of it, Usury "Intererst/Interests" Does not matter how we "Spell/Magic/Trick" it does it.


"Your Jesus" has not been helping"

Jesus is the Sun, shines his light on the world every day, he's right there, it would be tough to live here without him.

Capital ism, is the worship of the Capital.

The economic system is just lying, thieving, money Changing, Price Fixers.

Jesus turned over the tables of the money changers, and smashed their "bench".

Bench means Bank, Smashing the Bench, means Bankrupted.

The Ox, and Dove dealers were with the Bankers, they had driven the price up so high on the Oxen and doves that no one could afford them without borrowing from the Usurus Banks( Price Fixing ).

Widows needed the Dove for blood offering in the Temple.

Farmers needed the Oxen to plow and pull carts.

It's really the same story we have today.

Our fight is with the Banks, it has always been with the Banks, they own it all.

If you want to know the truth, fallow the money.

On CRITICAL THINKING

Here are some selected videos that I found useful in encouraging the use of "Critical Thinking" in the way we discourse with each other and the broader public. One video starts very appropriately by defining / questioning what "Critical Thinking" means, or should mean. I agree with the definition, that I hope most will adopt, that it is the type of thinking based on evidence, i.e., questioning the validity of the concepts presented with reference to the objective reality aimed at representing by assessing the evidence behind the thought / thinking / idea. With reference to "ideology" which is an expression of our neuronal framework (general pattern of neuronal connections / synapses / networking) at least at the "higher" cortical / brain centers, evidence-based thinking / "critical thinking" is a much more dynamic process than the usual "rationalizations" / thinking based on "reason" alone (which could be an "unreason" for someone else, and thus a much more simplistic stagnant kind of thinking). As such it is, at its full application, the tools of "dialectical materialist" ideology (looking at the world based on a material foundation and interconnected through change) in contrast to the capitalist mode of thought of "rationalization" with its "logic" / "ideology" of "metaphysical materialism or metaphysical idealism" (looking at the world based on a material or ideal virtual foundation disconnected in its elements and thus rigidly and awkwardly and hesitantly explaining change).

I also hope we can adopt many of the tools presented in these talks in a more or less systematic and cooperative manner as we try to analyze ideas, proposals, etc. It may be even a good idea to extract some of the valuable principles / techniques and list them in a systematic way (in a separate discussion thread if necessary) and start applying them to sample issues / proposals for mastering the techniques cooperatively as suggested in some of the videos.

"Critical Thinking" is intimately related to "critical reading, listening, presentation / talking / writing".

This video is a bit too long, but gives a good overview:


This is a good series. The speaker is an well-regarded in this subject (although I have not made a full evaluation of him). I suggest, if interested, you check his other videos on YouTube and post your favorites.



Another speaker applying the method giving examples in his science education.

I just created a new discussion thread on the subject of Critical Thinking because of its special importance in the movement including our daily communications. Look forward to your contributions.
http://www.occupytogether.org/discuss/#/discussion/2189/rules-and-tools-of-critical-thinking

Dear slave
I think in this categorie if some one wants to open a discussion, it will be better to form his dialouge in some simple principles clearly. Beacause in this categorie we don't want teach something to others.It means every body should say, what he(she) understants about conditions and what's her(his) opinion to find better way that humans should live together.

Recognizing Psychologic Manipulation and Psychopathy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_manipulation

I wonder if you think a simpler set of guidelines might be useful, esp. for people who havnt acquired the more advanced skills yet. I posted a link to some very useful forum guidelines here: http://occupytogether.com/forum/discussion/comment/3493#Comment_3493

The link I posted is here: http://occupytogether.com/forum/discussion/comment/3493#Comment_3493

The section under "Pitfalls to Avoid" is especially relevant, esp the link to the "Logical Fallacies", which you can find here: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LogicalFallacies I bet you had no idea there were so many of them.

These were supposed to help support the forum flag feature, but they weren't adopted.

@DeMarquis, thanks, I am posting the link which opens the page to some of the rules suggested:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Sandbox/GuidelinesForGoodDiscussionAndDebate
It is a good resource, and certainly one among many that we have to look at. One project I am working on with Ira, another forum contributor in this other discussion thread http://occupytogether.com/forum/discussion/comment/8744#Comment_8744 is the idea of establishing "ground rules" which could help build our movement step by step, idea by idea, person to person, etc. in a constructive way combining 1) the necessities of our dire individual and collective predicament as motivation with 2) the knowledge / experience / skills of the collective, 3) "science" and technology and power of evidence, along with 4) "universally" "valued" "minimum number" of RULES in the categories of "critical thinking" and "critical social constructivism".

This is an evolving project and I welcome your feedback and suggestions. The goal is to build an alternative economic system and society to capitalism which I understand you are not considering at least at this time. Nonetheless, you could at least contribute and benefit from an active open dialogue / debate about the rules of "critical thinking" on this other discussion thread which I created http://www.occupytogether.org/discuss/#/discussion/2189/rules-and-tools-of-critical-thinking
as a subthread of this one.

You're right, my attitude toward Capitalism is similar to my attitude toward winter- it blows, but I know of no realistic alternative. Still, I suspect that what you want is something along the lines of the "localism" movement (as an independent bookseller, I am by default a member of that movement). A really good resource along those lines is "The Sustainability Revolution" by Andres R. Edwards. Its full of practical programs that have been extensively field tested by local communities.

Find a way to connect local economies into an independent network and you may be on your way. Good luck.

Thanks, I will check that resource. The idea I am supporting is by applying the "scientific approach" in building autonomous communities based on common ownership. Then we could grow as you mentioned, "connect local economies into an independent network" using the tools of experimental science and technology - effectively divesting from capitalism and eventually turning it irrelevant. I do think it would be a battle, as the capitalist would insist in our exploitation, especially knowing that they depend on our labor for their welfare. Nonetheless, participating in our own exploitation would be certain suicide, without any prospects for a real hope / change.

I hope you join us when you get tired of the rat race. It is a necessarily experimental approach and each of us can make significant contributions if we learn to skills and have the right motivations. Understanding the necessity for EQUALITY (not just on moral grounds) in helping our individual survival is fundamental to our approach.

You may find the free philosophic books at 3108.info interesting

Theoretical readings on cooperation:
http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/kropotkin-peter/1900s/1902/index.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_cooperation